Not sure whether to bleach or try to "color correct"

Oh boy, ouch to all that! I just hope your hair really is as good as you think it is, I suspect there might be a multitude of sins hidden by silicone. I really do hope I'm wrong!

Firstly, don't use color oops. Use color fix. Color Fix is a lot less damaging apparently works better. I'm in the UK and neither are available to me, so this has been passed on to me from others. Color prep I've not heard of.

Also, don't use anything with peroxide in it afterwards. It causes any dye that's left in your hair after the process (which shrinks the molecules so they can slip out) to regrow and so you get most of the colour back again. You need to rinse it for longer than the instructions tell you and with water as hot as you can stand.

The problem with red is actually staining though. What is the end result you want? You just want a brighter red, right?

Thanks for your reply. I think Sally has color fix but I'll have to look. Like I said, I went to a lot of places online to do research before I decided to do anything. Color Oops seemed to be regarded as a great product. It did mention how the color molecules can regrow, but everything I read said that applying a filler before recoloring and processing new color for a very short time would combat that. I wasn't rinsing with super hot water, though, because our water heater is crap and runs out of hot water fast. I was rinsing with room temperature water most of the time and still ran out of any warm at all after ten minutes.

Yes, I'm hoping to get a brighter red/copper as opposed to what looks like a red tinted dark brunette color. People always compliment the color I have but I'm tired of it and want a change. My color before I went Grey was light to medium brown and I'd rather be in that shade range.

Would bleaching give me a better result or trying again to apply a color remover? It will be a couple of months before I do anything and I've got some great conditioner that I'll be using in the meantime. The condition of my hair seems good. It doesn't look or feel fried. I don't blow dry it or use a lot of styling tools and I keep products to a minimum. Of course it's not as pristine as hair that's never been treated but I try to take care of it.

Thanks again,
Penny

No, don't bleach. It can drive colour even deeper into the hair and is just going to damage it further. This could be part of your problem. Some hair that is damaged loses colour quickly, some that is damaged sucks up more colour than it would normally.

If you don't have much hot water, you really need to leave it a week before using peroxide after using a colour remover and wash your hair plenty of times in between to try and flush out as much of the dye molecules as possible.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by a filler in your last comment. A filler for what? What was the advise? I have my guess, but I want to know how you understood it.

I'm going to go into why your hair colour deepened now and what you can do to avoid it in the future. So, my guess is you did your entire hair every time you coloured it? That's normally how this happens. As I was saying before, some people have the kind of damage in their hair* that sucks up dye and every time you put another layer of dye it sucks it up and it'll get darker and darker. To avoid this happening again. Just do the roots when you redye and use a direct dye (types like manic panic, special effects or Adore dyes for more natural reds) to top the colour on the lengths of its faded a bit. You can even do this super easily by adding some of the red direct dye to some conditioner and this can be used as a mini refresh each time you wash. It won't build up in the same way as the permanents have been doing though.

Hair that is damaged can be hidden by layers of silicone from products like shampoo, conditioner, heat protectant sprays etc etc and you don't need to use a lot of products to have a heavy layer of silicone. To find out the true condition of your hair you can wash with clarifying shampoo and not use conditioner then dry it. With a bit of luck you've come through it all with les damage than I'm imagining from all you've put it through, I honestly do hope I'm wrong 🙂

But it also brings me to another point. Just to check, did you use a clarifying shampoo before the color oops? That's an important step that isn't always clear on all colour removers. Your hair needs to be dry and clean of all oils and product to allow it to work.

Lastly, I reread your first post and remembered something I wanted to ask in my first response but forgot. Why are you using 40vol?

*it doesn't have to be badly damaged, but using permanent dyes over the same hair over and over does cause considerable damage

Hi! Again, thanks for taking the time to talk to me. I'll try to answer your questions thoroughly.

First, though, my hair doesn't lose color so much as I need to recolor for Grey roots. It pretty much stays the same color for the 8 to 10 weeks I give between colorings. Yes, I have been doing my whole head because I was trying to achieve a different red and didn't realize that it was impossible the way I was doing it. All I use on my hair is shampoo, conditioner, and a little argan oil leave-in. I don't blow dry it so there's no need for heat protecting products, and I might use hair spray twice a year. My hair probably has much less product buildup than your average person who colors their hair.

I use 40 volume developer because my understanding of developer is that it can lift the shade, or make it lighter. My hair is currently in about the 3 to 4 range and I'd like it to be closer to a 7 or 8. Am I misunderstanding what the developer is supposed to do? I did say in my original post that only very recently did I discover that developer can't lift already-dyed hair. I feel stupid for not gaining a more thorough understanding of how it works before using it. And, I won't be doing the same process any more. If I remove color before recoloring, I'm not sure what developer I'll need to get to my desired color, but I do have some 10, 20, and 30 in the house too.

With regard to the filler I used between the color oops and the recolor, I tried to post a link to the product but the forum won't let me. Go to amazon and look for "colorful neutral protein filler 16oz" sold by mybeautywarehouse. It's on the US amazon that I got it. Everything I read said a product like this will prevent exactly what happened from happening. I've never used anything like it before but the instructions were pretty straightforward. My hair was damp when I applied it but it said to apply to damp hair. I didn't rinse it out before coloring. Normally I would process the color 30 minutes but I read that processing for only 5 minutes after using such a product will keep the molecules from growing back in such a spectacular fashion (darkening hair). Yeah, wrong!  -r-

I did buy a clarifying shampoo and used it after the color oops. It said to wash twice after the first 20 minutes rinse, and rinse for 5 minutes after each shampoo, which I did. At the end of the process, my hair had lost most of the dark red. But no, I did not use the clarifying shampoo before the color oops. I started the process the same way as I start dye jobs - a day after a regular shampoo and condition. I needed to get it done, I was doing it at night, and I didn't have time to shampoo and let it dry. People were sleeping so I couldn't blow dry and wake them. I guess my first mistake was the very first thing I did.

By direct dye do you mean semi or demi permanent colors? And instead of trying to find a shampoo and conditioner to keep red from fading I can put some of this dye into the conditioner between coloring? Can you give me an approximate ratio of dye to conditioner?
It sounds like a much more effective and less expensive option.

I guess I'm going to try this again next time I need to color, because I really don't want my hair this dark. If I have to rinse with hot water,
can I rinse for a few minutes, wait for more hot water to be available, and rinse some more until the required rinse time has elapsed? There's no way I can walk around for a week or more with pinkish orange hair topped by Grey roots. I know it won't turn my hair to the natural Grey because I did bleach it once about 4 years ago. That was the only time I ever got the light red I wanted but I didn't like the bleach products or the process. It will be fall before I do anything and I'll have an inch of Grey to deal with. Or would it be more advisable to do this whole process again while everything is the same color?

I really apologize for my posts being so long. I hope I answered all your questions well enough. Again, thanks for your time.

Penny

Oh, quickly... You asked what my understanding was of what the color filler would do. Well, I'm not a scientist or a stylist... It was supposed to make my hair less porous so that it wouldn't soak up new dye as fast. It was also supposed to help protect against doing more damage by repairing the hair's protein. But still I needed to process for only 5 minutes because it couldn't make my hair completely normal. I thought I understood that the color oops would shrink the dye molecules and processing color too long would bring them back to the size they were before I used color oops, completely negating use of the product. Does that sound stupid, or does it make sense? Thanks.

I can't edit my above post... I still needed to process a new color application for only 5 minutes. The filler product processed for 20 minutes and was not rinsed out.

Posts merged by moderator

Oh boy, I'm going to have to come back tomorrow to break all that down! I don't have time to get into it all right now 🙂

Oh, to edit posts, use the modify button which is on the top right of the post 🙂 I'll merge those together tomorrow as well.

I've merged the posts while I'm just reading through!  🙂 I'm going to leave Janine to answer though to avoid any confusion my getting involved could cause at this point!

Sorry it took me so long to answer, I've been feeling a bit rubbish for the last week and couldn't quite bring myself to get through answering the post! Sometimes it takes more brain power than you'd think  ;D *stars*

First, though, my hair doesn't lose color so much as I need to recolor for Grey roots. It pretty much stays the same color for the 8 to 10 weeks I give between colorings. Yes, I have been doing my whole head because I was trying to achieve a different red and didn't realize that it was impossible the way I was doing it. All I use on my hair is shampoo, conditioner, and a little argan oil leave-in. I don't blow dry it so there's no need for heat protecting products, and I might use hair spray twice a year. My hair probably has much less product buildup than your average person who colors their hair.

Right, if you don't lose colour, lucky you! Seriously, it's one of the biggest complaints we get with people with red hair. In that case though, definitely lay off doing all of your hair every time. Stick to the roots only and the time spent being more careful applying it on your roots only will be rewarded immeasurably by the problems it solves!

I use 40 volume developer because my understanding of developer is that it can lift the shade, or make it lighter. My hair is currently in about the 3 to 4 range and I'd like it to be closer to a 7 or 8. Am I misunderstanding what the developer is supposed to do? I did say in my original post that only very recently did I discover that developer can't lift already-dyed hair. I feel stupid for not gaining a more thorough understanding of how it works before using it. And, I won't be doing the same process any more. If I remove color before recoloring, I'm not sure what developer I'll need to get to my desired color, but I do have some 10, 20, and 30 in the house too.

That's not how developer works really. Developer makes a product work faster, but it's not strictly the part that's doing the lightening. It does part of it, but it really just makes the product you're working with work faster. For almost everyone (unless you're using a terrible product) 40 vol isn't needed and really just exposes you to a much higher risk of chemical burns.

The high  lift dyes, like the reds you use with peroxide aren't supposed to be used with already lightened hair. They get used this way all the time, but they aren't supposed to be. So, as your hair is already lightened, you can just use 10 vol on that and 30vol max on your roots.

I would actually suggest you use Special Effects dyes or Adore dyes as they're non-damaging and last as long as permanent dyes and are far easier to top up.

With regard to the filler I used between the color oops and the recolor, I tried to post a link to the product but the forum won't let me. Go to amazon and look for "colorful neutral protein filler 16oz" sold by mybeautywarehouse. It's on the US amazon that I got it. Everything I read said a product like this will prevent exactly what happened from happening. I've never used anything like it before but the instructions were pretty straightforward. My hair was damp when I applied it but it said to apply to damp hair. I didn't rinse it out before coloring. Normally I would process the color 30 minutes but I read that processing for only 5 minutes after using such a product will keep the molecules from growing back in such a spectacular fashion (darkening hair). Yeah, wrong!  -r-

I don't know where someone got the idea this would prevent reoxidisation of dye in the hair. Any exposure to peroxide will very quickly cause the shrunken molecules to regrow. The only way to stop it is for the molecules to not be there! 🙂

I did buy a clarifying shampoo and used it after the color oops. It said to wash twice after the first 20 minutes rinse, and rinse for 5 minutes after each shampoo, which I did. At the end of the process, my hair had lost most of the dark red. But no, I did not use the clarifying shampoo before the color oops. I started the process the same way as I start dye jobs - a day after a regular shampoo and condition. I needed to get it done, I was doing it at night, and I didn't have time to shampoo and let it dry. People were sleeping so I couldn't blow dry and wake them. I guess my first mistake was the very first thing I did.

Yep, it just can't penetrate the hair if it's dirty.

By direct dye do you mean semi or demi permanent colors? And instead of trying to find a shampoo and conditioner to keep red from fading I can put some of this dye into the conditioner between coloring? Can you give me an approximate ratio of dye to conditioner?
It sounds like a much more effective and less expensive option.

I don't mean demi dye. That's a dye that has peroxide but isn't intended to last permanently. I mean like Special Effects or Adore, as I mentioned before. They both have great reds. You can mix them to your hearts content to get the right shade for you. In this case, yes, mix into your shampoo. There's no strict ratio, you have to find what's best for you, but start off with a teaspoon for a small bottle of conditoner and that should be plenty.

I guess I'm going to try this again next time I need to color, because I really don't want my hair this dark. If I have to rinse with hot water,
can I rinse for a few minutes, wait for more hot water to be available, and rinse some more until the required rinse time has elapsed? There's no way I can walk around for a week or more with pinkish orange hair topped by Grey roots. I know it won't turn my hair to the natural Grey because I did bleach it once about 4 years ago. That was the only time I ever got the light red I wanted but I didn't like the bleach products or the process. It will be fall before I do anything and I'll have an inch of Grey to deal with. Or would it be more advisable to do this whole process again while everything is the same color?

It's not ideal to do it that way with the rinsing, but it'll be better than not rinsing long enough. Do it on a day you have lots of time and just keep rinsing, rinsing, rinsing! Once your hair is pinkish orange, it's already fine to redye if you go with the Special Effects or Adore. They won't make the dye reoxidise. It's the safest option for a lot of reasons. 🙂 It won't cover your greys, but it will cover the previously dyed parts.

I'm hoping someone else will chip in though, I'm sure there's stuff I've forgotten or not made clear!

This is all pretty confusing. So, maybe I can use another color corrector and then recolor with a non-peroxide semi permanent shade like adore (which I had honestly never heard of). None of the adore shades really matched what I am trying to achieve but I'm sure I can find something. Then, however, what do I do about the Grey roots since you say the adore won't cover them? I don't think I know how to get a permanent color to match a semi permanent color, and some of the peroxide on the roots would be impossible to keep from touching the rest of my hair. I'll try to rinse well enough after the color corrector but it's so hard to rinse enough! My back gets tired of leaning over in the shower and 20 minutes the last time was very painful. I know you're thinking that I should just go to a salon but they take one look at the length of my hair and want to  charge me $100 or more. My hair is thin/fine enough that I only ever have to use one 2oz bottle of product. I just can't afford a salon. Thanks again and I'm glad you're feeling better.

This is all pretty confusing. So, maybe I can use another color corrector and then recolor with a non-peroxide semi permanent shade like adore (which I had honestly never heard of).

Yep, that's what I'm suggesting 🙂

None of the adore shades really matched what I am trying to achieve but I'm sure I can find something.

The beauty of Adore dyes is you can mix them to match the colour you want.

Then, however, what do I do about the Grey roots since you say the adore won't cover them? I don't think I know how to get a permanent color to match a semi permanent color, and some of the peroxide on the roots would be impossible to keep from touching the rest of my hair.

You use the permanent dye on them first. Then you cover roots and lengths with the direct dyes (I call them direct dyes because they're a specific kind. Too many "semi" dyes come with peroxide).

You won't be able to do them right after the colour remover, but a week after should be ok. Besides, as you didn't do it quite right last time, you might not have as much of a problem.

As long as you're careful not to overlap too much it will still minimise the build up issue you're having.

I'll try to rinse well enough after the color corrector but it's so hard to rinse enough! My back gets tired of leaning over in the shower and 20 minutes the last time was very painful.

I understand, but it's what you have to do. As I said, short bursts isn't ideal, but it's better than not rinsing enough. 🙂

I know you're thinking that I should just go to a salon but they take one look at the length of my hair and want to  charge me $100 or more.

lol good god no! You obviously don't know me at all!! I don't often recommend going to the hairdressers, most definitely not for colour correction because 9 times out of 10 they just use bleach.

I'm sorry it's confusing, it is partly a set back of being asked so many questions at once. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't of course! It's just difficult to answer without confusing a little bit at least! What I know has been getting on for 30 years of dying my own hair and helping others, and a little bit of hairdressing training when I first left school (I was too scared of cutting hair to actually take it on in the end!). We can sort through it though and get you there in the end 🙂

Hi!

Actually, you've helped me a great deal and you haven't confused the issue at at all. The confusion is all me, mostly because I've been coloring my hair for nearly ten years and thought I understood how these products work. But as soon as I needed to do something different from my usual I found out how much I did NOT know.
*censored*  *stars*  *gun*

Thanks to you, I think I have a plan of action for next time.
*thx*

Also, I found another topic in this forum on how to deal with having to rinse and rinse and rinse.
http://www.hairdyeforum.com/index.php/topic,6197.0.html
It suggests an alternative to a long, continuous rinse. It could help me when my hot water runs out. It also suggests that most people just *think* they rinsed for 20 minutes when they only rinsed for 3. I didn't do that. I used a timer.

Between your advice, the non peroxide dye, and the advice in that other post, I think I'll be all right. I'm starting to get visible Grey roots again, so I'm actually ready to try now. Normally I wait until I have lots of regrowth, but since it's summer I'm especially opposed to showing my Grey. Lol ;D  :laugh:

I'll let you guys know the results, if you're interested. Thank you again!
*cheers*  *hugs*  *1*  *thx*

Sorry for the overuse of emojis. I'm in a silly mood.  😛

Penny